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 Clissold Scrutiny Review Panel  24 June 2004  

This is an edited and annotated version made before the minutes have been confirmed by a subsequent meeting. Thanks to “Stoker” for advising me of them. PB

Minutes available from http://www.hackney.gov.uk/clissold-scrutiny-panel-minutes-24-06-04.doc

London Borough of Hackney Clissold Scrutiny Review Panel  24 June 2004     

In Attendance:   § Cllr. Daniel Kemp (Chair). § Cllr. James Cannon., § Cllr. Karen Alcock

§ Kim Wright (Director of Community and Leisure LBH)

§ Colin Tucker (Principal Lawyer LBH)

§ Andrew McSmythurs (Advisor LBH)

§ Chris Reeves  (Commercial Director - Leisure Connection Ltd)

§ James Picton (Contract Manager - Leisure Connection Ltd)

§ Craig Morgan - Operations Director (Leisure Connection Ltd)

§ Malcolm Simpson - Walker Morris Solicitors for LC

§ Roger Dunlop (Acting Head of Overview and Scrutiny LBH)

§ Ben Vinter (Overview and Scrutiny Officer LBH)

§ Charlotte Fitzgerald (Press Officer LBH) 

17.2.    Order of Business 

This was explained to be the final meeting in this series reviewing the closure of the Clissold Leisure Centre.  

Those present were informed that the Panel proposes to defer the discussion on management of Capital Projects to the autumn when it also aims to look at the report of the building specialist and the report expected to be going to Cabinet with recommendations for future action.  

At this meeting the Panel has requested that Leisure Connection and the Council Officers present give a response to the issues that were raised at the meeting held last week...                                        

19.2    MATTERS ARISING 

The Chair asked that a number of outstanding issues from the previous meeting be addressed;  

1.   That Leisure Connection provide an update on the viability of the suggested improvements to the West Reservoir Centre. It was suggested that Leisure Connection respond on this issue at the stage of the meeting when asked to provide evidence to the Panel... 

Questions and Answers  

20        RESPONSE FROM LEISURE CONNECTION LTD TO ISSUES RAISED.

 20.1    The Chair explained that the Panel had requested that Leisure Connection respond on a number of issues which had been raised at previous meetings, including the previous meeting, at which Leisure Connection were not recorded as being present.  

20.1.1 Malcolm Simpson, Solicitor acting on behalf of Leisure Connection read out an introductory statement, as follows;  

            Leisure Connection Ltd are in attendance at this meeting with the intention of being helpful, however they face certain difficulties which they wish to place on record;  

                        1) Leisure Connection agreed to participate in this review within the Terms of Reference and not beyond them. 

            Leisure Connection are of the opinion that many of the issues raised in the questionnaires go beyond the Terms of Reference e.g. the frequency and regularity of phones being answered - It was questioned what bearing this had on the closure of the Clissold Leisure Centre and its ability to be reopened. 

            2) An additional constraint upon Leisure Connection’s engagement with this process was explained to extend to the fact that they had received a letter from LBH on the day before this meeting (23/6/04), placing Leisure Connection on notice of a possible claim being made against them by LBH. Such a notice of intent was explained to have significant implications for Leisure Connection and his firm’s advice was therefore not to deal with any issues falling within the terms of reference that may be subject to legal action.  

            In addition to this statement the following qualification were also added - that Leisure Connection remained absolutely satisfied that its obligations have been fully satisfied. 

Furthermore a number of general concerns were raised relating to questionnaire feedback Leisure Connection suggested were circulated only a few days prior to the meeting. The usefulness of this documentation was questioned suggesting that it was based upon anecdotal comments, which Leisure Connection believed to be totally inconsistent with their contractual monitoring furthermore it was stated that the source documents had not been presented to Leisure Connection.  

Criticism of Leisure Connection’s alleged non attendance at meeting two of this series of meetings (16/6/04) had been recorded; this was put down to a misunderstanding between LBH and Leisure Connection 

20.2    Questions and Answers 

Cllr Kemp enquired whether Leisure Connection intended to answer any of the questions set out before them today

It was explained that this remained their intention except where the issued raised may be subject to legal proceedings… 

Cllr Kemp reflected that when visiting Kings Hall and Britannia Leisure Centres unused space had been identified at Kings Hall, with surplus equipment also located in this area. Could Leisure Connection comment upon the prospect of this area providing additional gym capacity

Leisure Connection responded by acknowledging that a number of both wet and dry pieces of equipment were stored in a disused space at Kings Hall. Leisure Connection intended to bring what was described as ‘the old Kings Hall fitness suite’ back in to use in order to provide additional gym capacity.

Cllr Kemp requested that Leisure Connection proceed to answer the questions put to them in writing in the order that they had been addressed beginning with why a user group had never been set up at Clissold Leisure Centre

Leisure Connection stated that prior to the closure of the Clissold Leisure Centre in the October / November period of 2003 discussions had been held with LBH in order to set up a user group. Contact details had been provided by the LBH Head of Sport from which Leisure Connection had hoped to establish a regular surgery.

Cllr Alcock asked for information relating to how Leisure Connection directed consultation with and engaged users of the Centre

Leisure Connection’s legal representative stated that the Terms of Reference set out that the Panel wished to establish why the Centre had shut, what had been done since and what needed to be done for it to be re-opened. Leisure Connection would not be answering questions falling outside of this remit.

Cllr Alcock stated that she was a Ward Councillor in the Stoke Newington area and wanted to understand how the Centre could be improved in the future

Leisure Connection responded by stating that they ran user group surgeries at other Centres operated within the Borough and elsewhere. (Not at Vale Farm to the best of my knowledge. PB). Customer comment cards are collated and fed into a monthly analysis process. The analysis reports include randomly selected individual comments, comments from club representatives, as well as monitoring of performance trends both positive and negative.

From this analysis an agenda for a surgery will be created and invites dispatched. The Clissold Leisure Centre process was acknowledged to not have reached this stage. However as such schemes were run at other Centres operated by Leisure Connection it was fair to presume that they would wish to establish a similar scheme at a re-opened Clissold. (Which other centres and if not all centres what is the basis for choosing those that have user forums? PB)

Cllr Cannon reflected that within the legal position currently being experienced by all those present, this investigation had two very important purposes 1) To assess the impact of the closure of Clissold Leisure Centre on end users and 2) Allowing ‘all sides’ to provide their side of events. This being the case the Panel had heard numerous views of Centre users relating to the way the Centre operated and some perceived design flaws, did Leisure Connection  receive similar feedback from users whilst the Centre was open

Leisure Connection’s legal representative informed the Panel that whilst the company he represented was present at the meeting to be helpful, LBH, like Leisure Connection now, had declined to answer some questions due to pending or active legal action.

Cllr Cannon observed that at past meetings the Panel had heard that some facilities available at Clissold Leisure Centre were unavailable at the alternative Centres within the Borough. What is Leisure Connection trying to do about addressing this situation 

The Panel was advised that Leisure Connection were not present and had not been invited to previous meetings of this Panel.

Hackney legal representative responded by reminding Leisure Connection that it claimed it was in attendance, but its attendance was not recorded. 

It was accepted that Leisure Connection had been invited to and were present at the Panel’s first meeting on 26/5/04 but were not present, as anything other than observers, at the second meeting of the review on 16/6/04.

Cllr Cannon enquired what else had been done to meet the demand left by the closure of Clissold Leisure Centre

Leisure Connection stated that they believed such information had been provided by the Director of Community and Leisure at a past meeting but understood that schools had been contacted throughout the Borough in order to offer them available space at alternative facilities both in and out of the Borough. It was believed that such a scheme also included the provision for a contribution to school transport costs.

Numerous other clubs have also been offered alternative facilities, for example, Martial Arts Clubs have been offered capacity at the West Reservoir Centre, Gymnastics clubs have been offered facilities at Kings Hall and those who had block bookings have been offered remaining capacity at Britannia Leisure Centre.

The majority of progress in this area has been dependent upon the adoption of a sharing and accommodating approach by all partners and affiliated groups. However what is beyond dispute is that casual usage has increased over recent months, as had been alluded to by the Director of Community and Leisure at this Panel’s first meeting.

Leisure Connection stated that it hoped to further improve facilities and options available to the residents of Hackney by sitting down with LBH and establishing what the views of the public are, how to increase levels of service and conduct and support other projects such as play schemes.

Cllr Cannon enquired why Leisure Connection believed the alternative facilities offered to Clissold based clubs were deemed to be unsuitable

Leisure Connection stated that some user groups felt that Kings Hall was unsuitable as an alternative for reasons of cleanliness and had therefore chosen not to accept the offer of using these alternatives. This point was noted to be something that Leisure Connection did not wish to get into at the time.

Cllr Kemp explained that when visiting Kings Hall and Britannia Leisure Centres he was made aware of additional facilities being made available for Hackney’s minority groups

The Panel was advised that Leisure Connection had made efforts to provide increased levels of access to the minority groups of Hackney, especially the Orthodox Jewish Community, who the Panel was, advised now used Kings Hall on three to four evenings a week. Kings Hall now provided male only, female only and child only swimming sessions, the Panel was also asked to note that for the first time the Jewish Community had begun attending Britannia Leisure Centre.

Why is Leisure Connection not likely to pursue options for alternatives such as the further development of the West Reservoir Centre

The Panel was advised by the Leisure Connection Operations Manager that for further development of the West Reservoir site to take place capital investment would have to be assigned. Leisure Connection remained unhappy to consider such levels of investment whilst contractual issues between LBH and themselves were in existence.

Cllr Alcock reflected upon a past comment which suggested increased use had been witnessed at Kings Hall and requested clarity around usage during peak periods and how swimming time was allocated between causal users and block bookers.

Those present were advised that Leisure Connection were contractually obliged to continue all existing bookings (at the same cost with the same time allocations) attached to the Leisure Centres within the Borough. This causes problems as difficulties as both facilities are now almost at full capacity. In order to revise such usage allocation it was and is necessary to enter into long term negotiations with incumbent groups. An example was provided of where a relatively small Muslim swimming group was moved, only after extensive negotiations both with both the club and LBH, from Kings Hall to Britannia Leisure Centre.

Cllr Alcock enquired when it was thought these discussions would be concluded

The Panel was advised that discussions with user groups relating to allocation of block booked time was an on-going process with no defined conclusion.

Cllr Alcock stated that Leisure Connection were clearly a big organisation who presumably had other contracts to operate leisure centres on behalf of other boroughs, could such contacts not be utilised to alleviate current pressures within LBH

Leisure Connections stated that they have contractual obligations to fulfil with all their partners including other London boroughs. The Panel was informed that the nearest London borough in which Leisure Connection has obtained a contract is Lambeth, which could not be termed a neighbouring borough.

The Director of Community and Leisure indicated that neighbouring boroughs had sought to support displaced swimmers from Hackney; some of the schools that have been relocated are presently using facilities in Islington. It was acknowledged that neighbouring boroughs would in any case be experiencing issues associated with balancing the use of their facilities between target groups, schools, clubs and casual users.

Cllr Kemp reflected upon an issue raised at the Clissold Open Day in which a member of the public claimed to not understand the pricing structures and options available to users of leisure centres within the borough.

The Panel was advised by Leisure Connection that a number of different options and packages existed for customers of the borough’s leisure centres, all of which are actively promoted through a variety of mediums. Membership options were explained to include;

·    Bespoke use fees

·    Direct Debit membership, which leads to reduced long term costs for regular users

·    LBH Leisure Cards - offering discounted membership, allowing entry on a concessionary basis.

The Director of Community and Leisure added that a lot of joint working had been undertaken in promoting the Council’s Leisure Cards in particular targeting under represented groups. Those present were also informed that the Cabinet Member with responsibility for Leisure, Cllr Khan, has commissioned a review of pricing, in order to move towards more strategic pricing allowing the Council to hit its strategic objectives of increasing social inclusion in the borough.

Cllr Cannon requested information relating to how much usage of the remaining facilities within the borough had changed since the closure of Clissold.

In response Leisure Connection stated that an indicative figure for the increase in the number of users witnessed would be a five to ten percent rise across the board.

A member of the public, Jane Taylor, asked about the accuracy of the report from the Evening Standard relating to the demolition of Clissold Leisure Centre

The Chair of the Panel stated that a response from the Cabinet Member concerned, to such media articles, appears in a copy of the Minutes from meeting two of the Clissold Scrutiny Review Panel.  

Cllr Kemp asked the Director of Community and Leisure whether the Council had any kind of response it wished to make to the answers or statements made by Leisure Connection

The Panel was advised that the Council had no questions at this stage, principally owing to the fact that regular meetings were held between Council Officers and Leisure Connection.

Cllr Cannon stated that he was aware that regular meetings took place between Council Officers and Leisure Connection and asked what sort of issues were discussed during these meetings

The Director of Community and Leisure informed the Panel that regular monitoring visits were made to the Centres throughout the borough operated by Leisure Connection on behalf of the authority. Such visits help the Council’s Sport Development staff to record performance against the contract held by the Council, a system is used called RTIX (industry standard) to record such information, from which reports are compiled. These reports are then used as the basis for discussions between LBH and Leisure Connection. These meetings are used in order to highlight successes and to address problems.

Targets are set in a framework project management context for Leisure Connection to perform against under headings including; the number of sports development sessions, target sports, sale of leisure cards, availability of facilities, open days, session for those with disabilities etc. These meetings were explained to involve James Picton from Leisure Connection, LBH Head of Sport and members of staff from the Sports Development team. Regular meetings are also scheduled between LBH AD Culture and Leisure and Leisure Connection’s Regional Director, in order to shape the strategic direction and discuss other issues such as capital bids…