Roger Pimlott writes:
... I now have a book entitled De Bellis Fantasticus (My prize to myself for coming last), subtitled Here Be Dragons- a DBM supplement. Coming from Keep Wargames AND it has a colour cover (Barbarian and Dragon - what else could it be?) AND it seemed to be quite readable inside.
Contains extensions to DBM for Flyers, Behemoths, Humanoid, Undead (a new classification alongside S,F,O,I,X), the addition of heroes and Magi, as well as army lists for various generic fantasy lists, (ie imperial human, city state human, barbarian human, High elf, wood elf, dark elf, goblinoid, undead), various mythologies (roughly based off a DBM list with added components of Fantasy). Looks fun, we are currently trying to work out which mythology lists we can use easily to have a try. I might have to dig out the Lord of the Rings lists that were posted sometime back.
Nick Meredith writes:
De Bellis Fantasticus - Here there Be Dragons - was on sale at Roll Call at Dunstable. It is subtitled as "A DBM Supplement" and that is exactly what it is - DBM 2.0 (or later) is assumed, although it could be played with earlier versions by tweaking points values.
Interestingly, it is published by Keep Wargaming, rather than WRG. Keep Wargaming is run by Paul Bailey, who is also the publishing end of WRG, who publish the other DB* rules sets. The rules have been written by 2 members of the Ilford wargaming club, and have been seen in use on a large demonstration game on the UK circuit in thee last year.
I haven't played DBF yet - but will do soon. It seems to comprise a
number of new troop types...
Flying Behemoths
Flyers
Flying vehicles
Behemoths
Giants
Large Humanoids
together with a few specials.
War Wagons
(U) classification (Undead)
Unicorns
To allow for large models, special double width, or extended depth basing rules are included - providing greater toughness at a points cost.
New rules include:
Tactical moves for flying elements
Distant shooting involving flying elements
Close combat involving flying elements
Heroes
Magi / Magic abilities and spell list
There are a number of army lists included
The most interesting group of lists are the middle ones - the mythological period. These seem to be fairly standard historical lists with mythological beasties added.
Overall they look quite interesting - magic has certainly been made a little more complex than in HOTT, and probably the most annoying factor in playing them is that the movement and combat charts in DBF will also require those in DBM to be open for completeness.
David The Evil Brown writes
First a declaration of an interest - like a few other Listernaughts I am the author of a home-bake Fantasy adaptation to DBM, which I called De Bellis Fictionalis and my playtesters instinctively, and now confusingly, called DBF.
The DB Fantasticus, (DBFa) rules are published by Keep Wargaming - authored by Mitra and Denham and have no (apparent) input from PB, RBS or SL-B.
The Rules themselves do not stand alone but are 13 pages of things to read in conjunction with your DBM booklet - they are called a DBM supplement on the cover, but I'm sure some customers will be disappointed to realise they need an additional volume to start play.
Relatively early on in my developing DBfictionalis (DBFi) I changed from the supplement approach to a fully incorporated volume, both for ease of player use, and to ensure I covered all the necessary rules links.
The DBFa authors would have been better served doing so as well.
The DBFa design philosophy is a bit rambling - we are told that large-scale battles are intended but don't really nail down if they are intending a highly generic or limited fantasy genre. The DBFa design philosophy also recommends you read the DBM and HOTT design philosophy. The HOTT design philosophy is quite explicit, it is after some consistency with published works of fiction, folk lore and cinema.
Design philosophy is important in any set of rules and especially in fantasy - in the body of the rules elephants, behemoths and giants can't use magic - why be so restrictive, what type of fictional world do they envisage?
The DBFa incorporates new troop types:
Flying Behemoths, (Large things such as dragons and demons)
Flyers, (Smaller aerial things perhaps riding on carpets or mounts)
Flying Vehicles, (DBM naval with flight)
Behemoths, (Dragons, demons, mammoths, dinosaurs)
Giants, (Giant bipedal things)
Large Humanoids ( Ents, Trolls, Ogres)
and also lists Undead (U) as a troop grade and Unicorns as souped up LH.
Unfortunately the section introducing Flying Behemoths, Flyers and Flying vehicles is headed "Flying Elements", so in the body of the rules sections have to be examined to determine if "Flyers" means the type Flyer or the class Flying Elements. Similarly the Behemoth/Flying Behemoth could have been expressed differently.
Worse still at this point; the new troop types are not defined as Skirmishers, Lights, or even foot or mounted - although we later learn what they count as for combat outcomes (and are here told all the DBM rules apply) which I guess should be extended into PIP expenditure for groups, enemy post-combat responses, interpenetration and similar rules (enemy dismounting near Giants counting as WWg???)
Flying Vehicles are covered for "All DBM (Naval) rules apply", so shipwreck on a WW should be fun...and landing/embarking aerial marines should be fun for umpires.
The Undead Grade alters grading factors after close combat by giving +1 to the winning element, itself or the enemy.
DBFa also includes Heroes. Heroic ability can be given to an element (not Art, El, Behemoth or any vehicle, except if he is riding in it (?).
Magi are included, again by giving magical function to any element (not Art, EL, Behemoth Giant or Vehicle).
Larger beings can be based on a double-width or double-depth base and fight in the way WWg's long edge functions. The mechanism is something I have used, in part, and holds up OK - watch out for the V2 "half element slide into contact rule" and multiple contacts where opposing double-width things align half bases each.
The DBFa does not include HOTT Beasts, Lurkers, Sneakers, Paladins or Clerics - I'm not sure why - Beasts, Lurkers and Sneakers can be mixed into DBM without overbalancing things and adding colour.
The rules have some unfortunately sloppy drafting problems - the authors do not use DBM terms in places. - Certain elements add one to the "Break Factor" of a command: I don't know if this means add one to the original element total of a command or if it means adding an additional element to the 1/3 normally needed to break that command - or if such an element counts toward an army size or if it counts more when lost.
Similarly the authors use "Kill" (and melee) in a few instances where they mean destroyed but in others it could mean lost or lost in combat.
Double-width elements must Kill or recoil both elements before they can follow up, the rules are silent about flees and break-offs?
Some types have a "may add +1" in some shooting instances - I don't know why this should be optional - It will just allow player fudges.
I sympathise with the authors when they have devised a system of swoop attacks (with distant and close combat out of sequence) to handle airborne assault - working out rules for flyers is difficult.
DBFa flyers can move over any land troops - but land (apparently) can't move under flyers - the authors seem unaware of the interaction between moving under troops and ZOC rules -wait until devious players work out the obvious contradictions and organise ugly pinning and blocking moves.
All the flyers of an army are organised into a command led by a Pseudo General (who does not have to be paid for or get the +1 Combat tactical factor) who has his own PIP die. The Pseudo general is not defined as a sub or ally for reliability / treachery purposes, (although he can be upgraded to a sub with its usual meaning) it is not clear if the PIP die affects weather, if the command counts for victory points or if the number of commands can now exceed 4.
The DBFa section on "Rear Tactical and Support Factors" confusingly includes some grading factors - including one +1 which is sometimes a tactical factor and sometimes a grading factor.
The (U) grade gives a +1 in close combat to either player "with the higher die roll" rather than the higher score; so I assume it is added before other grading factors...
Heroes (usually only one per side) destroy large beasties by scoring greater in close combat, they move with their own D6 PIPS (again it may or may not affect weather).
Magi - magic function can be given to elements (but not all types) Magi have 5 listed "abilities" and can choose 4 spells from a list of 11. Spells have a limit of how often they can be used. The magi has a separate PIP dice from which to expend 2 to cast a spell.
I can't quite tell if you can cast more than one spell per turn or if the magi can use his own PIPS for moves as well as his commands. (same problem with PIPs and Weather as above).
In my experience fantasy wargame rules can be killed off by poorly thought out magic. My preference is to ensure magic requires player skill by linking it to a command's pips.
The DBFa magic rules will not cripple this game even though there is no countermeasure to it.
One of the Magi's abilities is to add to the "Break factor" of friends in a way I don't understand.
Other elements can have a magical ability which mimics one of the spells.
The rules also cover Breath attack, its range, if any, is not listed with this section so I assume it has none. Breath weapon is calculated using "Its own factors" (whatever that means for Bd/Kn/ etc) and must double its enemy to kill it. No recoils and apparently no special defence for Skirmishers and no tactical factors.
Breath attackers may not enter into close combat so I guess it is for use in the enemy bound or continued combat.
Spells
Hand of Destiny allows a bad die to be re-rolled - I assume this means combat die but this is not stated, ie. PIP die, river crossing etc. Also this spell apparently lasts forever until needed.
Summon Warriors - allows the Magi to create up to 4 foot 2 mounted or one flyer (no large beasties) It is not clear whether the summoned troops move with the Magi's PIPs or the command's. The summoned troops can not be considered original elements, but how do they count as losses.
The AP costs of the new troop types and magic is quite expensive, magic costs +40AP, heroes cost double the base + 5AP - which is probably OK as the sample lists included (30-40 in number) are designed for 500-700ap for the first batch.
I think the authors would have been well served by including a fast play option.
The lists include a set of armies the War Hamster players will recognise a set of semi-historical armies (designed for 400-500AP) and a vaguely Tolkienseque (400-500AP) set.
In summary this set of rule supplements will not challenge War Hamster or FR, they will not attract players to the genre and will be a disappointment to players wanting a well crafted DBx set of fantasy rules.
Thane Maxwell writes
Recently been trying these out and thought I would check out what others thought of them. As Dave Brown has already said, they are poorly written, don't always use correct terminology or address all rule issues. Nice to see WRG indirectly getting involved with the Fantasy scene as although it is increasing in interest there is a real absence of a decent set of rules which cover battles as opposed to skirmishes, so why have they published a half-finished set?!!!!
Other grips with them are to do with the army lists. These seem to suffer from a lack of play-testing. The Warhammer based ones have too low minimums, too many different troops types (eg Dark Elves have 4 different compulsory combat foot alone which move at different speeds and some suffer from impetuousity) and don't balence (the number of Wb(S) in some of the armies will wipe Bd/Sp combinations of others). The historical mythological are a bit better, but do offer ahistorical combinations of all the best troops(eg Chinese get Kn(S) chariots, LH(S), supported Sp all in the same list!). The traditional period is thinly disguised Tolkien restricted to late 3rd Age and contains many alarmingly poorly thought-out match-ups. eg Wargs are Cm(S) which count Woods as good going and will consequently destroy Ax in wood on a recoil! There are far more sophisticated variants knocking round (Luke's, Dave Brown's or mine are all at least internally consistant and balenced).
Finally, can anyone help with a series of questions which we couldn't work
out:
1) What is range for Dragon Breath attack?
2) Do flyers in the air stop ground troops within 200paces from marching?
3) A hero destroys a Bh when it beats it's score by 2, dice score or
adjusted total?
4) Bh are classed as per El, does this mean that there opponents don't
counts (S)? What of Bh(S) vs Bh(O)?
All in all, a disappointingly poorly play-tested set of rules with one or two nice things about them (magic works well and not too powerful)...
Steve Price writes:
Just reading the DBF reviews with interest. Myself and a friend played it the other day for the first time, him being a regular DBMer and myself more of a HOTTer.
To keep thing simple we dispensed with flyers and used 350pts. He used a standard DBM knights army (some Anglo German army from 1400 ish) and I used Dwarves.
We too were disappointed to find Paladins, Clerics et al were absent so we improvised and come up with the idea that Clerics have the same effect as in HOTT and that the Mage must roll 4 or better when within the usual 600 paces, if a failire occurs then the spell is not cast nor lost. We costed him at what ever element type was wanted plus 15pts. The Mage costs base plus 40 and gets 4 spells (plus some other bits) so we figure the Cleric had one continous spell so we decided 15pts + base. The element type should be suitable for the army.
The lists are a bit too varied (many troop types) so effectively the only difference ends up being the race of your army. They've obviously put some thought into army lists though with Elven Bow as superior and Orc as Irregulars.
For Heroes we found our 40mm depth base didi not fit the standard DBM size so we invented Super Heroes, using the Extended Depth Rule you get the +1 Hero and +1 Extended Base. Some may find the Hero too strong but it was the only thing that saved mine when the knights thundered down the table at him. You do have to pay the extra cost of course but it does make them special and you do only get one.
A nice touch was that the hero could be any element type thus giving them a ranged attack it of the right type, depends if you think heroes should be melee only I suppose.
We also did not understand the Break Factor thing, we did wonder if it might be the roll the command must make if it has lost its general.
For the magic we used common sense, the Summon Warriors spell we decided that the any lost elements would NOT count to morale. They were not there when the command/army break point was calculated so they have no effect, they did however have to be moved under the Mage's PIPs . We understood from the rules that only one spell per turn could be cast and it cost 2 PIPs each time.
What we found was that it was effectively just a DBM with Fantasy races, the flavour did not really come through.
I imagine we'll try again and add the flyers (probably the best and most useful bit really as the rest wouldn't take too long to figure out on your own). I suspect a few new interesting spells might make it more interesting other than a DBM all meet in the middle clash (Ouch ! I can here DBMers rattling their sabres from here).
Probably will remain one of those sets that ever HOTT and DBM player buys passing 'Oh that looks interesting thought but destined to be played little.