- are dvds too expensive? -
- update 10/5 - go to new comments -
Yes, say the public - yes, say the retailers. Of course not, say the studios.
What started all this was an editorial of mine (copied below), in which the central crux of the argument was - "with older films available for £4 on VHS, how can people be expected to fork out £20 for an averagely presented DVD with no extras?" Such a policy could jeopardise success for the format, since when people see high prices (and greatly limited titles) on the shop shelves, it may well put them off buying DVD altogether.
Well, you lot responded, and I received a number of well thought through, intelligent e-mails which I thought worth repeating here in full, including from one retailer and also (read on) from Warner Brother's PR company. Thanks to everyone who wrote - if anyone else wants to make a contribution (although I can't absolutely guarantee I'll put it up), please e-mail.
- Adam Bowie - punter -
"I've got to largely agree with what you say. The premium pricing of some of the movies available in the UK is simply ridiculous. People get carried away with even films like Trainspotting coming out on DVD when it's been on VHS for some time and is regularly in 3 for 15/21 type promotions in places like HMV.
You walk around seeing the something like Batman & Robin being practically given away in the VHS section and then go over to the DVD section and see it for 15.99. Yes it's in Widescreen (but you could get the VHS widescreen for 5.99) and yes it's high quality, and Dolby Digital with extras. But how many average consumers are actually worried about this sound. It's still high-end to the sort of people who still haven't got around to connecting a scart lead from their Nicam video to their Nicam TV (this is still incredibly common - "Why should I shell out a tenner for a cable when I got one with the video that gets the picture across?").
Of course I want Dolby Digital and the extras, but a quid or two more is about the limit. Sadly I think that we won't see prices coming down enormously for some time. Look at the move from vinyl/cassette to CD. Similar sort of changes in technology and CDs always pricier. In fact while vinyl [all but] disappeared, cassettes just got closer and closer to CD prices.
Essentially DVD is going to need the equivalent of 4 Front video for some of this stuff. I can't conceive of why anyone should want to buy the likes of Strictly Ballroom on DVD at the current price. I would think long and hard at 4.99, and then not buy it (and it is quite funny). And the same even goes for stuff like the Shawshank Redemption - anything that's been on (terrestrial) telly really, apart from cult stuff I guess. If Trainspotting can generate two different VHS releases, an HMV special edition, two soundtrack albums, repackaged book and a screenplay, then it can probably manage a swiftly withdrawn version, a BBFC approved version, and no doubt in the fullness of time, a special edition with numerous commentaries, making of documentaries, and behind the scenes stuff that somehow didn't make it on this time. (No I'm not cynical - and yes I'll be buying my third copy of the Star Wars trilogy in a third format when it makes it to DVD).
As for kids stuff - Disney are of course past masters at hiking their prices. Look at the RRPs of recent stuff 16.99 and 17.99 for Widescreen aren't uncommon. Shops may discount away at these prices and offer free gifts - but this is out of their bottom line on a high volume product. Tape has suited Disney too with it's limited lifespan and high replay among kids. These tapes wear out. The cassette is withdrawn altogether, and then gets "remastered" and re-released a few years later for another generation of kids. DVD's aren't going to wear out - so it's top-dollar from day one.
I expect that prices will come down a bit, when Columbia notice that although Godzilla sold well, Lethal Weapon and (even) Armageddon sold better largely due to the fact that 15.99 is acceptable - over 20 quid is purely collectors territory, up in "import CD boxed set" land.
- EJ - punter -
A great article about the exploitation of the UK public regarding the lack of quality concerned with most DVDs.
To be honest, if a disc has no extras, but is a nice picture with nice sound I wouldn't mind paying the price of a video for it. However, what I won't accept is that studios must split films on to two sides just for the sake of a few quid. This defies the whole point of DVD and is quite frankly pointing two fat fingers up at the British public.
Take Warner for example. They have produced quality Special Editions such as Contact and LA Confidential establishing themselves as pioneers in the DVD market. Then they decide to split other films such as Goodfellas and The Wild Bunch on to two sides making sure they lose any respect that they may have gained in the past.
If the film is crap with no extras then no-one is going to buy it.
Spiceworld anyone??
However if the film is crap but with good extras then it stands a chance.
Sphere??
More recently The Shawshank Redemption has been re-released on video. It contains much the same additional info as the DVD, it is in Widescreen for less than a tenner. A bargain and is sure to put a swift knee into the crotch of the DVD version which sells for more than twice the price.
I ask the forthcoming studios to take note of the trial and error of DVD in this country and not only release quality films but with the same (at least) extras as in the USA.
- Richard Exley - Punter -
I agree completely with your general comments about pricing of discs. It is beyond me how retailers like Virgin are selling any discs at all. During the week of Godzillas release , Virgins' shelves in Sheffield were groaning under the weight of unsold copies at 22.99. Next door at Smiths , they were selling out of discs at rrp as fast as they could order them in.
Where I disagree is on your point about the competition from digital TV. Whilst our American cousins have long had a high take up of large screen TVs, in the UK average screen size was stuck at 21 inches until very recently. There is no real point in getting into DVD without a big screen to watch it on. Digital broadcasting is the sales driver of larger size widescreen TV's in the UK. Once you get a 32 inch widescreen as I did 6 months ago , you soon realise that VHS just isn,t good enough any more. As digital/widescreen TV prices drop and sales increase, DVD will only benefit. Indeed, sooner or later somebody will offer "front end only" DVD , ie just the drive mechanism and control software, as owners of IDTV's or digibox's will already have MPEG decoding.
- Nick, DVD Gaming - retailer -
We agree,
I cannot wait for the day when DVD back catalogue gets re-released at £3.99 - it will happen.
It has to happen, look at tring's cd label when CD Audio first came out. CD's were £25.00 each which I guess equates to £45-£50 in today's money and now the back catalogue is generally £7.99 with budget specialists offering titles at £3.99 and titles in petrol stations at £1.99.
Even the publishers can still make money at £1.99 - 30p vat, 50p for retailer, 50p mfr, 40p margin.
DVD offers such a low risk for the publisher, even if the format failed tomorrow they would still shift all the inventory they have as owners rushed around to buy remaining titles.
I would imagine Warner will drop some prices in the Autumn, their current line-up is ideal for impulse purchase (Blazing Saddles a prime example) and then the collectors.
I would love to have a movie collection on a non-degrading format which I could invest time & money building. (I started to with Laserdisc but they are just too big and too heavy and the prices started getting the better of me).
- Ben Turner - punter -
I couldn't agree more with your comments.
I bought a Creative Encore about 6 months ago (as a first dip into DVD) and have just about convinced the wife of its superiority over VHS to get round to buying a 'proper' player. I would love to be able to stroll down to the high street and pick up a player as I would any other piece of home entertainment, but there's no way I'm buying a player at present that won't play Region 1.
Whilst I'd love to replace all of my 'classic' Video's with their DVD equivalent, I'm not about to pay 20 quid for the UK version when I can import it from the US or Canada for almost half that.
Extra features are all well and good, but come on, lets be honest, are you really going to sit and watch the directors commentary of Tomorrow Never Dies over and over again?
To be fair, both WHSmiths, and Woolworths appear to be trying to lower prices (though clearly not to the level you suggest). I noticed at the weekend that Woolies had even got a couple of titles on sale with £2 off!!
The real problem is that it is always seen as acceptable to introduce a new product at a higher price with a view to price reductions when it takes off. In some markets this seems to work - but somehow entertainment software misses out. DVD is being positioned as a 'Premium' product, and therefore should cost more than Video. Once Video is dead and buried, if you've always paid 15.99 for a DVD most punters will just accept it. (Try substituting CD for DVD, Vinyl for Video and re-read that sentence!)
Anyway, add my voice to the cause!!
- Stefan (from mainland Europe) - punter -
What can I say? Whit your splendid article you really touch the most urgent issue about dvd.
Not only in the UK, but all around Europe. Because the pricing issue is exactly the same in France, Italy, Germany, everywhere in R2. Think: in France Film Office (and others) are releasing old movies on a 33, even 35 Euro retail price basis. And no discount for anyone, not a little bit ! Then guess why people buy on region 1. Even if they know for sure that ntsc is well inferior to pal.
If only the Majors could think a moment how much they could improve their selling rates reducing of a 20, 30 % their current titles prices! Ask dvdworld, as an example, how are they selling titles on the crash price section.... you know ?! If prices were more or less how you postulated they should be in your article, today my dvd collection would be 3 time maybe 4 time what it is instead.
In fact you reach the point when you think about a different pricing depending on the age of the movie and the presence of extras and maybe, I say, of features as the anamorphic transfer, which I continue to consider as the real goal of dvd technology.
As well, I do not consider over yet the Divx issue. Maybe the companies are well aware of the pricing issue problem, and they are planning Divx for an around the corner cheap rental-like alternative to the expensive sell-true actual only possibility. In fact, I don't know what to think about Divx anymore. I was one of the most sceptical and critical people to Divx even before it makes his appearance in the US. But if the pricing policies will not change quite soon, maybe Divx, or something like it, could be the only way to drastically improve the number of dvd on my collection.
If they don't make crap of it, of course, as they probably will. Because a pan & scan, featureless release is not the one I will bring home in dvd, not even on a rental basis.
THANKS for listening, anxious to read what companies had to say about the issue you raised.
- Doug Hooper - industry professional -
While you make some good points in your pricing "rant", I think that you do overlook one thing - authoring. This can be a very expensive process and is a cost that videotape doesn't face. It costs around £8000 to author a bog standard no extras single language release. This figure can climb to £50000 for the extras laden, animated menu, multi-language discs that we all prefer.
While the DVD market is growing rapidly, only a handful of discs have reached five figure consumer sales so far. Lets take an average disc and say it costs £25000 to author and sells 5000 units. That's a fiver per disc sold! OK, in the long term these costs will be recovered, but I don't think you can say that DVD is a license to print money yet. In fact I suspect that none of the UK distributors will have made a penny yet on the format. Obviously as the market grows, the authoring cost will be spread over greater volume, enabling prices to fall. I know its a bit chicken and egg, but I think £15.99 for a lead title with extras isn't bad at the moment. I think its more difficult to justify these price levels for older titles without features. Personally, I think it is in this area that prices will fall. I suspect that we may see Woolworths and VCI lead the way. These two got together to kick start the retail video market in the mid 80s and now they are both part of Kingfisher, I wouldn't be surprised to see them do something together again - the software equivalent of the Samsung 807. I hasten to add that this is pure speculation on my part, not the result of any inside knowledge!
My reply
Authoring is, of course, far and a way the most expensive part of almost every DVD released. However, as my investigations into VCI for Total DVD showed, their first batch of titles broke even in only three months, when hardly anyone had a player last summer! Their discs contained extras and were for the small UK market only. Rest assured that the movie-only Buena and Warner transfers are much cheaper to author than VCI's titles. My big beef is with these discs, not with the Contacts and LA Confidentials - as you say, a feature laden new release is good value at £15.99.
Meanwhile, let's hope your speculative instincts prove correct!
- Patrick Cleasby - punter -
Brilliantly put, but are the right people reading this? Can you get that Comment put (exactly as it is) into the next available Total DVD!
My Reply
I will be pursuing the pricing thing as time goes on, but t'aint my place to do the Total DVD editorials! However, at least some people are reading this humble site...
- Steven, Peter Noble PR
(representing Warners and Buena Vista)
- public
relations -
Had a read of your interesting piece on pricing.
I had a chuckle about your comments on MGM.
Okay let's look at this in perspective: What is one of the most pressing complaints about DVD in the UK? The number of titles is it not? Bearing this in mind, yes MGM do produce some great packages with their titles and high quality, and you can see how they do it when they currently have all of 11 titles on the market. Not that I should bash them as they are still on terms with Warner. Then, if you look at the Warner stable, they have 115 titles currently available.
You can either get few titles with amazing extras etc or all the films that you want.
Things are changing and when our summer line-up kicks in, things will get even bigger.
I replied to Steven regarding these points:
My reply
While it is commendable that Warner have released so many movies (and believe me, MGM will get the appropriate rocket when my sights are turned to numbers of releases), the issue I was addressing is purely value for money. Although MGM titles are more expensive, they are always superbly packaged and almost always contain great extras.
Although Warner have several flagship titles which compete with these, they seem to be getting fewer and fewer, with even rudimentary extras being dropped off. The Avengers might as well have been a dreaded Disney! (Although they would have split the 86 minute film across 2 sides, of course...)
When Warners make the effort, they are still the best, but they don't seem interested in making the effort any more. It is my opinion - and hence this will filter heavily into Total DVD etc - that £15.99 for a featureless Caddyshack is poorer value for money than even a basic £19.99 MGM title. Take Raging Bull - a real enthusiasts film. It is dual layer, has a trailer, and has a really excellent little booklet and disc label that just exudes quality. Simple touches, but they make a helluva difference. If I were a Scorsese fan (I'm not, sadly), although it is not swimming in extras, I'd get a real kick out of having this on the shelf. Both title and disc are eminently collectable.
By mislabelling the majority of their discs, having numerous lacklustre titles, screw ups like US Marshals and so on, public confidence in Warners has taken a dip. And with only 1 title with a significant extra on (The Negotiator) coming up in the next 2 months, things actually looked rosier with the impressive bunch released back last September. We all continue to applaud the sheer numbers being produced, but if Warners want anyone to buy them... the price has gotta come down.
Sorry about bashing your clients - I really do appreciate you taking the time to send me your thoughts though. And I WILL champion The Negotiator!!!
Steven's reply:
All very interesting and I agree with some of your points.
However, you would be surprised by how many requests I've had for Caddyshack, even going back a whole year people have wanted it (probably because of its 19th anniversary).
At present with pricing it is necessary to make a benchmark for what people can expect to pay rather than confusing them. In time the prices will probably come into line with the bands used in VHS but it is still very early days yet. Strategy is vital to the growth of the format.
You may view the next couple of months for Warner & BV as rather barren but believe me, from July through the rest of the year things will get very hot indeed.
I fully agree with the comments in your article. I cannot believe I am the only person who would not buy more titles if only they were more reasonably priced.
I accept the
argument from the industry professionals about pricing, but only
upto a point. Surely if they released sought after back catalogue
tiltes at reasonable prices this would encourage more of us to
replace our dodgy VHS copies, I certainly would, and better yet I
would have thought this would make DVD more attractive to
newcomers and encourage more sales. I can accept that we will not
see titles for sale for £10 or less yet but surely the £18+
price being charged by some retailers is only slowing down
the growth of DVD, surely pricing new releases nearer their VHS
counterpart would make them more attractive. Come on you
distributors and retailers more titles and better prices will
guarantee you sales!!!
- Chris - punter -
I couldn't agree with you more.
Compared to Region-1, Region-2 has been treated poorly. In terms of pricing, but also in terms of additional features, flipper discs, and availability of product (the latter being a temporary problem, I hope). With only a very few exceptions, most Studio's seem to have adopted the 'Take the money and run' policy: release some of the crappy titles now, because people are desparate to fill their shelves with DVD software, and wait for the good titles until the market has matured. Ever thought that because of this strategy, it will take much longer to get a mature market (and to reduce DVD-Region-1 importing traffic) in Europe.
And could someone actually explain to me how all these features suddenly go missing after a film gets a region 1-to-Region 2 transfer. And why Region 2 had to be broken up in all these sub-regions (just look at the language versions on a region-2 DVD and you'll notice that it is only been produced for a number of territories, which sometimes leads to the most crazy situations. Father of the Bride 1 comes out for a certain sub-region, while its sequel is released for another one). I can understand sub-regions when it concerns independent product released by independents in the different European territories, but NOT when it concerns Studio product. (Which, I guess also makes the production process more expensive).
And how come it is so difficult for the distributors to +/- stick to the release dates? I can understand that this happens once in a while, but not all the time. PolyGram seems to be the champion: in Benelux, we're still waiting for such titles as Lock, Stock, ..., Hard Rain, A Life Less Ordinary, etc. (While they suddenly release the four-hour version of Dances With Wolves whithout prior notice).
With regard to the actual pricing: £7.99 for catalogue titles (i.e. the ones shown on TV before), £11.99 for new releases (with just theatrical trailers as extra feature), and £14.99 for new feature-heavy releases (£15.99 in case of exceptional product).
And could someone tell companies such as Warners and PolyGram to switch to the traditional DVD case (see MGM, Disney, VCI, etc.).
- The DVD (Determinedly vigilant dissenter) - wild punter -
Disclaimer: All information and suggestions provided herein are for humorous and educational purposes only and are neither advocated nor condoned.
It is clear that we early DVD buyers here in the UK, as is largely the case for our Continental counterparts, are being grossly overcharged for the privilege of watching movies on a format which at last bears a resemblance to the picture and sound quality which subconsciously contributed, along with content, to our initial enjoyment of them.
Those fortunate enough to own a 100Hz widescreen TV and a top-spec DVD player (myself included) have now had the shortcomings of VHS clearly demonstrated, and even S-VHS pales into insignificance in comparison with the best DVD transfers (Contact, Fargo, Das Boot, etc). Although recording movies in Anamorphic Widescreen has only recently become possible with the advent of digital (SKY) TV, one only needs to compare an E-HG VHS, even S-VHS recording to a truly magisterial DVD transfer in order to illustrate the phenomenal potential that the latter format offers.
As has always been the case with new technology (VHS, Compact Disc, Laserdisc, Minidisc etc), it is those initial enthusiasts who, by virtue of their quest for both an acceptable and agreeable ‘reproductive format’, bear the inflated costs before the spending power of joe public slowly begins to lower the price for all.
Axiomatic as this clearly is, however, the behaviour of certain high-street chains has ensured that many who may have been tempted by DVD during its infancy (the latter months of 1998), have probably been put off indefinitely, having balked at the prospect of having to replace even a moderate section of their VHS collection (50+ movies) with the shiny new discs.
Although those impatient individuals who cannot wait to obtain all their favourite movies on DVD will import from R1, no one can take pleasure in contributing to the US treasury at the expense of their native economy. The issue of BBFC censorship is, admittedly, the other main determining factor when deciding whether to purchase from the States, but this is one argument that is not universally applicable as many of the greatest films ever made are, after all, not rated 18 (Citizen Kane, Star Wars Trilogy, Casablanca, Time of the Gypsies, Andrei Rublev, Shawshank, etc).
There are, for those unwilling to submit to the greed of HMV and Virgin, two ways in which to soften the severity of DVD pricing.
i) If not officially eligible, it is relatively simple to forge – I mean obtain – an NUS student I.D., which provides a guaranteed 10% discount on every purchase in both HMV and Virgin. Not only is it most satisfying to produce the discount card after your purchases have been rung up on the till, but the knowledge that, on average, every future DVD purchase will save you £1.60 – £2.00 makes DVD shopping a more relaxing, even pleasurable experience.
Dishonest as this may well be, the failure of both these stores to publicise such a "generous" discount surely mitigates the attempt to illicitly obtain the discount.
(This one may well be somewhat controversial, and often requires research, but here goes anyway):
ii) Systematically return your entire VHS collection (particularly if it is relatively small) to your local high street entertainment retailer in order to exchange (or as is often the case) part-exchange those long-cherished but now outdated analogue tapes for their digital equivalents (if available).
This is a particularly easy process in central London, as the close proximity of stores makes the return & exchange of 20+ movies in one trip a practical and largely effortless task!!!
(Do Check, however, that the recordings are still available, either by telephoning beforehand or by noting down during a previous trip which of your proposed returns are still available to purchase). Although the prices of many VHS recordings may have been slashed due to in-store promotions, the return of those old and worn recordings provides the dual benefit of offsetting the policy of systematic overcharging whilst freeing up valuable shelf space which will, over the course of time, be used to house your expanding DVD collection.
After a couple of trips your confidence will obviously increase and you will eventually maintain your composure in the face of a clearly annoyed sales assistant who has to process such a mathematically challenging exchange transaction. Indeed, it will soon become possible to employ a combination of both the methods outlined above to enjoy maximum savings and at last achieve true value for money.
If at this point you find yourself thinking "the gall of the fellow", then please refrain from reading on.
Although the highly-trained and knowledgeable personnel who occupy well-paid positions of authority and responsibility in many high streets stores usually just scan the returned items and deduct the total from your new purchases, you may occasionally encounter the dreaded deputy manager, or if luck has deserted you entirely, the store manager him (or occasionally her) self. Never Fear!. In the event of such a potentially embarrassing and queue-stalling development do not panic: merely employ one of the following explanations as to why you wish to return 6 or more dusty VHS cassettes in an often ragged last-year’s-design carrier bag with no receipt:
a) I have been given these films (by a parent or other family member), but as I already have these particular movies I should like to take advantage of your generous exchange policy, or, failing that,
b) I have been given a (two-figure) number of films, but out of this generous gift, I wish to return these damaged or faulty items. (Do not worry, they do not check the tapes, but merely return them to the distributor, who in turn credits their account).
c) It is also possible to employ a combination of the above – either way those unwanted VHS recordings can be disposed of in a safe, financially-beneficial and environmentally-friendly manner.
Due to their obvious commitment to the new format and to their magnanimous policy of abiding by the RRP, (and to the fact that returning videos purchased in either HMV or Virgin causes their scanning systems to go haywire),
W.H. Smith and Woolworths should not be used to offload cheesy VHS tapes
I hope that these suggestions will help to alleviate some of the current anxieties that accompany the DVD-buying process, and thank you for your attention
Happy DVD shopping !!!
Well, anyone got anything more to add? Thanks again to everyone who has chipped in.
We in the UK DVD community can be a pretty insular bunch, and all go on about pretty much the same old stuff - flippers, anamorphic transfers, overcharging, Amaray cases, blah-di-blah-di-blah. Fair enough - all of these issues are worth banging on about, but it is coming to my attention that there is another, more important, one which we're largely letting go.
Pricing. Never mind about Virgin slapping another few quid on top for the moment - the price of almost every DVD in this country is way, way too high.
Witness the explosion of player sales and interest now that Samsung have dropped the price of an entry level machine from £400 to £250 at a stroke. It really is this simple - to get people interested, make it cheap.
I don't know why I'm picking on Carlton, but look at their new release of Strictly Ballroom. A fine film, and the disc even contains a little featurette too - great. But the movie is now 7 years old, has been on TV numerous times, and you can probably pick it up on VHS in the 3 for a tenner section down HMV. It's not the kind of title to scream out for listening to in 5.1 (even if it were made in that format) or watch in widescreen, so it's not gonna naturally be that attractive to buy on DVD.
DVD still has a tough sell ahead of itself to get the Sun readers. Forget all our banging on about quality - most people can't see what's wrong with VHS, and no matter how hard we try, we can't make our players record yet. So you just have the lesser bonuses of convenience, durability and extra features on which to sell DVD. This week I was with some friends in a Blockbuster that had just started to sell DVD, and their two comments - "All these films are old!" and "Isn't it expensive?"
Now imagine Strictly Ballroom retailed at £9.99. Five quid cheaper than any other DVD - a good film - durable and has a couple of extras. If you quite liked it, it suddenly becomes an impulse buy, but at £20 it damn near has to be your favourite film of all time.
Having picked on poor little Carlton, I'm gonna turn to the supposed saviours of DVD, Warner Brothers. £16 for Caddyshack is absolutely ridiculous. In the States, Warners introduced three levels of pricing, and they need to do the same here pretty damn fast. Here's how it should work:
It goes without saying that Buena Vista, with an inferior product, should at least match these prices. Columbia Tristar and Polygram need to adopt a smiliar policy, and VCI, despite their strong presentation, should think about dropping to £15.99 - they could get away with this high price point because their movies are largely cult items. The one studio who are offering more value for money routinely at the moment - despite the high price - are MGM. Have you bought any of their discs lately? Each comes with a dead stylish 8 page booklet. The label is a design masterpiece (witness Raging Bull or Rainman), almost every transfer is dual layer and top quality (even on a shorter films), and there are frequently commentaries, deleted scenes or animated menus. Just about every disc released exudes quality, and that's the kind of thing people don't resent paying over the odds for. In terms of presentation and sheer class, no-one else comes close. That said, a price drop wouldn't hurt, of course...
The reason all the studios are so excited about DVD is that it is a license to print money. Disc replication is already dirt cheap and undercutting VHS - this will rapidly get cheaper and cheaper. It's another way to milk their back catalogues - punters get to buy their 19th version of Aliens and Star Wars. But at the moment, they all want to have their cake and eat it. Now that distribution channels are established, the studios would still be raking in the profits at a far lower dealer price, and the volume of sales would sky rocket. Despite the recent huge increases in sales, I'm still not sure that the ordinary punter on the street is embracing DVD - with all the money behind selling Digital TV, our format has competition which is almost uniquely strong compared to anywhere else in the world.
So let's see all you studios rise to it.
contact: guy@movieuk.com
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