What Makes a Good Jazz Club

01/10/09 - It's a bad start to October, with two lots of bad news. Stan Ward writes, "I have just got home from Hyde Cricket Club with the Savannah. During the interval Peter announced that the October gig would be the last as dwindling support has made it no longer viable to have jazz on the last Wednesday of the month.

Perhaps I, as a typical punter, might comment on your report on the demise of jazz at Hyde Cricket Club and make a suggestion to all would-be organisers of such clubs. While good bands and a welcoming atmosphere are important, unless you find a good venue you will always face an uphill struggle.

By a good venue I mean somewhere that is (a) comfortable, (b) has decent acoustics, and (c) has a good bar (one essential feature of which is having cask beer as well as the ersatz versions). All three are necessary; permutation of two from three is not enough. The evolution, nay transformation, of Eagley Jazz Club was down entirely to its move from its original home at Bernard Callaghan's Eagley Sports Centre to Dunscar Conservative Club. Without wishing to belittle Bernard's support for traditional jazz over many years, the most comfortable seating at the Sports Centre faced away from the band, and the bar, lacking a proper cellar, was very poor. As a consequence, I used to attend only on special occasions - typically three or four times a year. At Dunscar the room is comfortable, the acoustics and beer are both good and, as a result, regular attendance doubled within a year to 80+, including yours truly more often than not.

About four years ago, for personal reasons, I started to attend Rochdale Jazz Club instead. This was, at the time, meeting at the Broadfield Hotel which was certainly comfortable but had a poor (and expensive) bar and a rather wide and flat seating layout which wasn't conducive to good acoustics. The move to the Flying Horse brought a welcome improvement in the bar but sacrificed comfort and acoustics big time. In neither was the overall experience particularly enjoyable so I remained an occasional attendee. Many others must have felt the same as the club nearly folded. The most recent move to the Castleton Sports Centre (former Castleton St. Gabriels) has improved the comfort and acoustics but the bar is now a disaster again and attendances, though up significantly, are still some way short of the Eagley figure.

Hyde Jazz Club suffered from poor acoustics ('L'-shaped room with entirely hard surfaces) and a poor bar so, despite its attractive programme, I'm not surprised it ultimately failed. If anyone in the greater Stockport area is looking for a venue, might I suggest they look at High Lane Conservative Club. I have only been once - to see Mart Roger's band - but it is comfortable, has a good bar and the acoustics aren't bad.

Malcolm Bridge

07/10//09

I have read with interest the email and article on What Makes A Good jazz Club and would like to hopefully draw attention and support to a new venture at Eccleston Social Club, St Helens

The club originated as a works club for Pilkingtons Triplex automotive, However since the works have closed and now been demolished the club needs to attract people in to survive.

After using the room to rehearse one Monday evening I was approached by the steward and asked if I would help the club to host some jazz nights. We have arranged four bands to play over the next eight weeks.

The music will be a mixture of traditional jazz and standards mainly played by local musicians. See Gig List

The club has provided a fee for the band and is a good supportive venue. There is a very pleasant lounge, with easy parking and a level access (use the access shared with the dance school), the visibility of the band is clear and acoustics are good, the club sells real ale and has been awarded 2009 St Helens CAMRA LOCALE "club of the year" with one of the real ales currently on sale being Blue Moon from George Wrights brewery in Rainford (2miles away !!!))

The music starts at 8.30pm on Sunday, entrance is free, and as a special treat there is bingo in between the band sets.

Hopefully with a bit of support we can create a "GOOD" jazz club.

Many Thanks - Paul Speakman

08/10/09 - Hi Fred,

I'm intrigued by the notion that one of the most important qualities of a good jazz venue is that it should be comfortable. Malcolm Bridge obviously thinks so, as he mentions the words "comfortable" and "comfort" a total of seven times!

Let's remember that this is the music that was born in the bars, dance halls and sporting houses of New Orleans, and developed in the speakeasys of Chicago and New York, none of which I imagine were particularly comfortable places.

I think it's important to point out that most live music today is played to standing audiences. Whatever the style of music being played, if the band/group/artist is successful then more people are going to want to get into the venue and they can usually only do that if they are prepared to stand. This is much more enjoyable than sitting at separate tables, semi-isolated from everyone else. In my experience, both as a punter and a musician, there is much more camaraderie and shared enjoyment in being part of a standing audience and this in turn communicates itself to the musicians.

Traditional Jazz has a small but prestigious record for the "standing crowd". Apart from the big festivals like Keswick and Bude where there are always lots of standers at the back of the room in every venue (sort of promenaders in reverse!), I'm reminded again of the Blue Mags at the old Wavertree Coffee House, and the Merseysippis at Hartleys on the Albert Dock. The standing crowd at both these venues was about 15 wide and 6 deep at the bar which usually outnumbered the seated audience. (Do the sums!) The Marlborough in Liverpool still has a larger standing audience and this residency is about to enter its 22nd year.

So let's see more of us standing up to be counted. Okay so you have to keep hold of your drink, and don't have both hands free to be able to clap, but at least you can join the rest of us and cheer! It might not be comfortable but it's much more fun. When I want to be comfortable, I relax in an armchair at home and listen to CDs.

Cheers, Phil Yates

This discussion made me laugh and then weep for my lost and probably misspent youth. Admittedly it's been a very long time since I had the pleasure of listening to live jazz in the UK, but when I did, the last thing I would have appreciated was to sit demurely at a table in a comfortable chair.

OK so the majority of patrons have difficulty with steps etc. (as do I now) but whatever happened to the idea of attracting younger folks to the music we all love? When I, and my friends were enjoying the scene it was all about dancing, meeting new people, having a drink or three and generally working off a lot of energy. Not likely to happen if comfort becomes a prime reason for being there. Just imagine what would happen if some younger people, attracted from outside, by the sounds, were to look in and see all this sedate sitting around... don't think they would be tempted to stay. Would any of us have stayed when we were teens +?. Sitting down was for concerts.. not clubs or pub venues. If attitudes don't change and if the atmosphere doesn't attract the next generation, where will the music be in say, ten years time?

Thanks again for keeping me,( and probably more others than you know about, ) connected to the memorable bits of my past.

08/10/08 - Hi Fred,

Just a brief response to some of Moe's comments.

Of course I appreciate that some people are unable to stand due to age and /or condition of health, and these are just the people who deserve to have the best seats. However, I know of several septua/and even one or two octogenarians who actually prefer to stand with the crowd. It is not just a feature at rock gigs either, but covers venues promoting folk, blues, country and other styles of jazz. Moe also asks where are the jazz venues with standing room only. Well, the aforementioned Marlborough for a start, also the Caledonian in Liverpool (modern jazz, but heaving with people) and last but not least, Stamps in Crosby, both at our monthly trad session and all the other live sessions there every Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Check out their webcam www.stampsbar.co.uk/webcam.html any weekend evening and see for yourself.

Phil Yates

I too know septuagenarians who are as fit as a butcher's dog but surely they are the exceptions that prove the rule. I am not familiar with the clubs that you mention but good luck to them although looking at Stamps website I would hardly class it as a jazz club. Indie bands, rock cover groups etc. with presumably good ale would certainly bring the punters in and the jazz sessions probably benefit from this. Still I am almost at 70 and I still have the energy to knock hell out of my kit so I can't complain ! - Moe Green.

I notice that having good beer features strongly in the What Makes a Good Jazz Club debate and I couldn't agree more. It is, in almost every case, an essential ingredient. However, this does surprise me somewhat as over the years I have noticed an awful lot of traditional jazz fans sit all night carefully nursing a single pint of shandy, only to be up and off the moment the music finishes.

The rumours I have heard about the demise of one jazz venue local to me, had nothing to do with the quality of the food but more to do with the fact that not enough people in the audience were drinking and the cost of the band became unsustainable.

Obviously I'm not advocating binge drinking, drink driving (there are alternative methods of transport to most gigs). I do feel, however, that punters should support the venues by putting more money over the bar. Let's face it at a lot of traditional jazz venues admission is free so it's a pretty cheap night out if you only need buy a few rounds of drinks.

Any club/pub experimenting with hosting jazz has to be careful that the band does not put off its regulars. Not everyone appreciates jazz no matter how good the musicians are. If these regulars are big boozers and go elsewhere on jazz night only to be replaced by a jazz audience sipping one drink all night then failure is guaranteed.

I also agree with Phil's comments about standing. I can remember some blistering nights of jazz stood next to him at Hartley's in the 90s. All the best venues and jazz nights I can remember were spent standing propping the bar up, having a good crack with people of like mind and consuming a "respectable" quantity of beer!

Paul Marks

Although I have included the last email, I really intended the jazz club debate to centre on jazz clubs that survive by paying an admission fee.

I have just realised that some of the previous discussions have been comparing jazz clubs with licensed premises that have totally different objectives. Licensed premises have drink sales as the prime motivation, and we have all seen bands dismissed when the profits have failed to meet expectations. Jazz clubs have the music as their prime focus, many have even run at a loss in order to keep the music alive. and the quantity of beer drunk is not necessarily an issue, except perhaps where the room is made available without charge. Where people are paying an entrance fee, their expectations can be different from those premises where the music is free.

I would like this debate to focus on jazz clubs that charge admission, and what you think makes a good one - Fred Burnett

The Yorkshire Stompers had a most enjoyable night on Sunday 11th at Rochdale. The new club is a great improvement with the pillars out and the repositioned stage. From my position behind the drums the accoustics seemed pretty good, the room was full and the jazz fans were appreciative and welcoming, we all thought the dancing by the stewardess was excellent.

Now on the beer ,well I drink Guinness so no problem there and I asked a couple of beer drinkers how they found the Lees Smooth,they said it was actually quite good but real ale would be better! I did hear there is talk of getting real ale in so that should please the real ale fraternity. Personally I would give Rochdale a well deserved 9 out of 10 .Thanks to all concerned a most enjoyable night

Terry Binns

No doubt the best-known jazz club in the country is Ronnie Scott's, which has just celebrated 50 years of bringing to these shores the world's top jazzmen, without ever losing its intimate, jazz-club atmosphere. John Fordham's excellent article on the club's success, with contributions from some who have played there, is at http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/oct/06/happy-50th-ronnie-scotts

The main message seems to be that a good venue is one that somehow helps foster a close contact between musicians and audience, a human bond, so that you feel right there with them in the act of creating. It's one where, in Fordham's words, you can see them "smile, sweat and grimace, in pursuit of that killing phrase." He quotes Ronnie Scott as saying that one of the main things about his club was that "it gave audiences a chance to see players' humanity ... that they could be wonderful - and that they could also f.... up, like everybody else does."

Come to think of it, The Jazz Gentlemen's venue at The Black Horse in St Helens is a bit like that - it's so small (some might say cramped) that the punters are almost in the musicians' laps. This means that they're totally aware of the muso's emotions as they play, whether delight at some inspired phrase or at some spark that's lit up an ensemble passage, amusement at a cheeky quote or embarrassment at some cock-up, and they're sucked into the experience. It's the immediacy that matters. No doubt good ale helps, as does a minimum of comfort, but surely it's the rapport with the band that's vital. Some venues encourage this, whilst others don't.

If an audience can see the musicians really enjoying themselves and enthused by what they're playing, they'll feel part of it - and there's a good chance they'll come again.

Keith Allcock

So there we have it: provide a bar plentifully stocked with real ales - don't provide a bar at all; provide sufficient comfy seating - let them stand. And who can really judge the acoustics? Can you hear the double bass and rhythm guitar - and does it matter?

The correspondence seems also to be dying (the general lack of interest surely says it all): can I put what may be a final nail in the coffin?

Several writers have put their fingers on what may be the main problem: the target audience is too old to put up with the various inconveniences
(reluctance to leave the fireside, driving at night, lateness of finishing time, risk of someone else sitting in YOUR seat) and to enjoy some of the pleasures (standing at a crowded bar, drinking lots of proper beer, hearing something innovative, dancing).

I wonder whether the resolute adherence to a trad policy (and the predominance of 6/7 piece "standard" line-ups) may have contributed to the downfall. Some of the longer standing (or sitting) club attendees might have been put off by the inclusion of supposed modern groups, but perhaps other (younger) customers might have been attracted. I have to admit that this is conjecture, as there are so many factors that your contributors have mentioned. It is probably too late now to attract new punters to the scene. Those clubs that cling on by their fingernails (perhaps making regular losses - but who is prepared to stand them?) while others close may eventually reap the benefits: a stay of execution being granted for just a few strategically located and well-operated venues.

Audience involvement is obviously important, but there may be pitfalls. There have been comments elsewhere on "the same old numbers": sometimes it seems that for every listener quietly applauding something inventive and different, there are two noisily cheering the formulaic rendition of an old rabble-rouser. Keith Allcock quotes of Ronnie Scott's: "It was spontaneous and collaborative, suspicious of fashion, rules and musical boundaries." One difference between Ronnie Scott's and local clubs is that at Ronnie's whatever the musicians tried was accepted by the audience. They didn't expect Stan Getz to play Doctor Jazz.

The enjoyment of the musicians is also hard to judge: some are naturally exuberant, some are not, and some may even fake exuberance. It is often rank beginners who are the most enthusiastic performers, delighting in producing anything vaguely musical. And on the subject of entertainment, while there should be good communication between musicians and audience to achieve a suitable rapport, it should neither conceal limited ability nor obscure music of real quality.

A couple of slight digressions:

1) About fifteen years ago I heard Oscar Peterson at the Free Trade Hall: he dispensed with introductions, and afterwards I concluded that his style could easily be described as traditional, bearing in mind jazz developments during the preceding fifty years such as bop, post-bop, modal, fusion, free-form.

2) Last Wednesday on Radio Stoke, John Hellings played a 1972 Ken Colyer tune followed a few numbers later by a 1959 Kid Ory recording. I was struck by the huge difference in overall and particularly rhythmic approach between these two arch-exponents of traditional style.

Returning to the main theme - what are we likely to be left with? Just a few clubs, and the hope that publicans will continue to promote jazz that will satisfy connoisseurs and topers in a comfortable environment.

John Muskett

03/12/09 -

In an effort to bring new ideas to our 'Traditional Jazz Club' in Welshpool, Powys and keep it alive, our next session on December 13th will have the exceptional jazz piano player Paul Sawtell as guest with the band. Paul played with the Kenny Ball band for 2 years but is better known today as one of the UK's best and most in-demand modern jazz players. This will certainly give our band an edge (frighten us) and add a new flavour to some of our 'Trad Jazz' numbers. Why have I done this? Because I want to keep the music alive and kicking and sometimes an injection of new ideas, and risks, without leaving the traditional behind, might just be entertaining enough to keep our audience interested in coming to the club and having fun. We have tried very hard to make it a welcoming and entertaining club and to provide good quality, good value meals too. Anyone interested in coming to see if we have a ' musical car crash' or 'mutually satisfying musical experience', is very welcome to come along. If you need directions and other details then contact me, Jeff Matthews on: 01686 - 630438, 07831 - 383636 or email me at southsoundsjazz(AT)aol. com.

Jeff Matthews The Southern Sounds Jazzmen The Bear Katz Jazzband

What are your thoughts? Email them to fred.burnett@btinternet.com